Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 23, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Here's why I object to Anet taking their time with balancing: because even when they spend a lot of time on it, the end result is still imbalanced.

Phaern Majes · Feb 23, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Quoted for truth.

VoR split and CoP revert are reasonable, however, asking for a class that YOU chose to play be overhauled because you don't like how it works in pve is pretty asinine.

It would be except the classes with the highest damage output got overhauled to be, get this... even better. Even if the changes end up being as everyone predicts as mediocre and people continue to not use hammers or tactics or blood or rits.

The fact of the matter is these classes didn't need the update, those six months could have been better spent on something that really is "unbalanced". Nobody is denying it that mesmers have the raw end of the stick, they are just saying "it isn't worth Anets time because 'nobody' plays mesmers".

Truth of the matter is I don't play a mesmer, I'd love to, I have an empty character slot just waiting for the day they actually make them worth a damn in PvE. I can see a load of potential for mesmers if Anet would just devote the same amount of time to them as they do warriors, rits and necros.

Dratyan · Feb 23, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

They could just remove Dervishes from the game since they are useless, make Mesmers PvP-Only, and make that all Paragons begin the game with Imbagon build(and cannot change it) , including max bonuses from Allegiance titles.

No more underpowered professions(mostly) after that.

Karate Jesus · Feb 23, 2010, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dratyan

They could just remove Dervishes from the game since they are useless, make Mesmers PvP-Only, and make that all Paragons begin the game with Imbagon build(and cannot change it) , including max bonuses from Allegiance titles.

No more underpowered professions(mostly) after that.

Oshit, this guy just fixed the game....

Lest121 · Feb 23, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

While u at it Failnet nerf the 55monk.........I can't wait for Gw2 no more buildwars.

PS: Question for Failnet, If i get my own group of people who hate 55monk build and started to QQ all day, will you nerf it also?

Giga_Gaia · Feb 23, 2010, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If I remember correctly, Regina has a page on wiki talking about how ANet are trying to make mesmers better for PvE. Who's to say ANet hasn't been looking at mesmers?

Regina also said a lot of things that are completely vague, gives no definite information, and are generally full of excuses for whenever something is late/not done/etc. Would you still faithfully believe in everything she says? If they had been looking at mesmers, then why didn't they say anything in the update notes? As i've said, they gave no explanation or any hint that mesmers will even be considered for future updates.

EDIT: okay I found her entry. Boy she was quick to archive that. In any case, my point still stands as there has been no word from them since then.

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Also, once the test krewe is settled in I'm sure the updates will take much less time. Remember, this is the first time ANet's done something like this, so it's obviously going to (further) push back the balance. Sure, they took they're time, but I'd rather wait a few months where ANet is getting direct feedback from players and much more testing rather than a few weeks of ANet choosing skills and throwing shit at a dart board.p

This sounds extremely familiar doesn't it? And how are some of these changes not darboartted? I mean look at some of the ritualist changes. Many of them are still weak and still useles. Look at the blood line. Barbed signet? LMAO. Seriously do necros really need more support?

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Shortening recharges is really more of a bandaid fix that takes no thought at all. Mesmer skills don't need shorter recharges, they need to be reworked for PvE. Mesmers can do damage, shut down, and interrupt. 2 out of those 3 are useless in PvE. Cutting the recharge on skills is still going to leave the majority of mesmer skills useless.

And it would make many of us happy. Like Josip said, it's all a matter of balance with respect to the format that you play. I suggest reading his post again.

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Reverting VoR would be good, but CoP was nerfed in PvE for a reason. And mesmer energy management is fine unless you press 1257261836589 in the matter of 10 seconds.

Come now don't play dumb. I'm sure you must be aware as anyone else that CoP could easily be changed to be a mesmer skill only. And mesmer energy management is very weak due to the never ending pvp nerfs. I mean there's a reason why monks go /E for GoLE instead of /Me for whatever few viable e-management skills that they do have left (hint: none). Heck, even mesmers need other secondaries for e-management instead of their own.

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So really, what do you want? Bandaid fixes like shortening recharges so the only decent mesmer skills are more spammable while the rest are still bad, or ANet actually messing around with all their skills so mesmers as a profession can be better?

I want some acknowledgment from the LT/TK that mesmers are crap and are even considered in their minds and that they will be looked at. I want them to say something instead of being silent and hoping that we'd be stupid enough to not notice when mesmers got neglected again.

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 23, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Or they could just split it and rework the PvE-version only, since the nerf was needed because of a strictly PvP issue.

You mean the issue whereby my buddies and I would see a war, even better a sin or any other melee caster wannabe, and throw VoR>Empathy>Backfire>Wastrels and then just tickle em with whatever else we felt would hasten their very rapid end? Surely not, because that sort of thing only happens in the movies.

After all, whose fault is it if they can neither count nor bring themselves to stop bashing at you like a moron with a stick? Where PvE is concerned, IMO it's no more OP than anything else out there, as it requires skill use to trigger, and is not a hair-trigger bullshit hex like SS is in that way.

I'm kool 'n' the gang with the PvP reasons and all that jazz.

Now your turn; TK, Arkantos, (You still haven't answered me

) tell me. What good and I say good reason is there to keep VoR in it's current PvE state?

Don't tell me, lemme guess: Destroying the enemy by turning their use of skills against them with high damage armor-ignoring hexes is not part of what Mesmers are about...Err, wait a second, anyone else see something wrong in that statement?

One other point I've made before, and would like to reaffirm;

Being vocal, outspoken and staunch in defense of one's class of choice is not whining. Whining is whining. Whiner's are always rage-quitters, and as far as I can see, none of us so-called whiners are about to rage quit any time soon. Randoms don't count in that analogy, btw.. :P

persuadu · Feb 23, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

The funny thing is instead of nerfing SF or Obs Flesh, if they just made it so EVERY profession could use it, there would be a lot less griping. I know a lot of people whined about Ursan (and many now wish they would bring it back) but at least ANYONE could run it. Those who QQ'ed about having to have a certain Norn level to get into groups just need to lump it because you still need R5 or better in other EOTN ranks to be able to run UW with a SF Sin. I can tell you that the more class specific the skill set required, the less inclusive the game gets and the more players stop playing and start crying about how they are left out. ANET's last few moves to fix this have just put them farther from the mark.

Arkantos · Feb 23, 2010, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Regina also said a lot of things that are completely vague, gives no definite information, and are generally full of excuses for whenever something is late/not done/etc. I mean, just look at some of her posts here on guru, and on her journal over the past 6 months. Would you still faithfully believe in everything she says? If they had been looking at mesmers, then why didn't they say anything in the update notes? As i've said, they gave no explanation or any hint that mesmers will even be considered for future updates.

This sounds extremely familiar doesn't it? And how are some of these changes not darboartted? I mean look at some of the ritualist changes. Many of them are still weak and still useles. Look at the blood line. Barbed signet? LMAO. Seriously do necros really need more support?

And it would make many of us happy. Like Josip said, it's all a matter of balance with respect to the format that you play. I suggest reading his post again.

Come now don't play dumb. I'm sure you must be aware as anyone else that CoP could easily be changed to be a mesmer skill only. And mesmer energy management is very weak due to the never ending pvp nerfs. I mean there's a reason why monks go /E for GoLE instead of /Me for whatever few viable e-management skills that they do have left (hint: none).

I want some acknowledgment from the LT/TK that mesmers are crap and are even considered in their minds and that they will be looked at. I want them to say something instead of being silent and hoping that we'd be stupid enough to not notice when mesmers got neglected again.

The test krewe is meant to give feedback and test updates. After this skill update, they're going to have to work on something else. What else exactly is there to work on for PvE? Mesmers are going to get updated.

And thank you for proving my point. They didn't put too much time and thought into some aspects of this update (blood magic, ritualists), and the updates aren't that great. Would you like updates like this, or would you like updates that take longer, but are better?

Sorry, but that statement was pretty dumb. When monks go /e for energy management, they don't have to put any attribute points into it. When they go /me, they do. I think it's pretty obvious that a 3 attribute line monk is going to choose /e rather than /me.

If ANet is buffing underpowered professions/attribute lines in PvE, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the live team is going to address mesmers in the near future.

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Now your turn; TK, Arkantos, (You still haven't answered me ) tell me. What good and I say good reason is there to keep VoR in it's current PvE state?

There is no good reason. I completely agree that VoR should be reverted for PvE.

Ugh · Feb 23, 2010, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lest121

While u at it Failnet nerf the 55monk.........I can't wait for Gw2 no more buildwars.

"Buildwars (or Build Wars) is a common mocking term, referring to the game (paticularly PvP) being in a state in which the builds are more important than skill or tactics."
You're against 'Build Wars' but you're in favor of OP farming builds that lessen the importance of skill and tactics?

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PS: Question for Failnet, If i get my own group of people who hate 55monk build and started to QQ all day, will you nerf it also?

They already did. And, if you don't notice the huge RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing difference between the current effectiveness of SF/600 and 55, you're some sort of derogatory term that hasn't been invented yet.

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Failnet

Clever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by persuadu

The funny thing is instead of nerfing SF or Obs Flesh, if they just made it so EVERY profession could use it, there would be a lot less griping.

No.

Lanier · Feb 23, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

I want some acknowledgment from the LT/TK that mesmers are crap and are even considered in their minds and that they will be looked at. I want them to say something instead of being silent and hoping that we'd be stupid enough to not notice when mesmers got neglected again.

Mesmers arnt crap. They can still steamroll through PvE w/out using one of those stupid AP/norn builds. Sure they arnt as fast in PvE as the other professions but they arnt crap either.

jazilla · Feb 23, 2010, 03:21 AM // 03:21

If they have indeed found the solution to the "invincible farming builds" does that mean we can throw dhuum out of the UW now too?

maxxfury · Feb 23, 2010, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

TIf ANet is buffing underpowered professions/attribute lines in PvE, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the live team is going to address mesmers in the near future.

^ now we play the waiting game! (tho it would be nice to get confirmation

)

And on that note, im guessing that the mes updates are prob in the pipelines/been theorized about as we speak, but i feel they would need more work to actually keep them from been broken YET still mesmery and decent in pve....with anet not wanting to split every skill they need to balance some of it with pvp in mind as well!..

We know that the mes changes have always been a problem one way or the other affecting pve or pvp adversely.

Skyy High · Feb 23, 2010, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

And how are some of these changes not darboartted? I mean look at some of the ritualist changes. Many of them are still weak and still useles.

They look at least moderately interesting. I know I'll have more than one build to run on my rit after this update.

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Look at the blood line. Barbed signet? LMAO. Seriously do necros really need more support?

Uh, yes, that's what pretty much everyone has been asking for: to turn blood into a support-based attribute and remove the majority of the vampiric-style damage since it's so bad as pure damage, and so unnecessary as healing.

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Come now don't play dumb. I'm sure you must be aware as anyone else that CoP could easily be changed to be a mesmer skill only.

Aaaand then the abuse would have just been for mesmer primaries...how is that a good thing? The ability to spike a huge mob for 500-800 armor-ignoring damage is ridiculous, even if it is limited to mesmers only.

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And mesmer energy management is very weak due to the never ending pvp nerfs. I mean there's a reason why monks go /E for GoLE instead of /Me for whatever few viable e-management skills that they do have left (hint: none).

Monks go /E because it's more useful to have an on-demand energy management skill than it is for a monk to add additional utility or support with his energy management skills (also, as the poster before me said, it requires no att points). That's exactly what mesmer energy management is good for: giving you energy while doing something else useful, be it ench removal, e-denial, hex removal, interruption, shutting down melee, etc. The issue is that the first four of those are largely irrelevant in PvE, which means that skills that do those functions in addition to providing energy are going to be inferior to strictly e-management skills most of the time, and in all cases they take more thought to use. The issue isn't the skills per se, it's the fact that PLeaking an enemy in HM is a) difficult, and b) largely unnecessary if you have an imbagon reducing damage on everyone by 90%.

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Heck, even mesmers need other secondaries for e-management instead of their own.

AP is a whole 'nother ball game. No profession has energy management capable of keeping up with that, let alone the skill recharging.

Giga_Gaia · Feb 23, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

And thank you for proving my point. They didn't put too much time and thought into some aspects of this update (blood magic, ritualists), and the updates aren't that great. Would you like updates like this, or would you like updates that take longer, but are better?

You mean updates that take even longer than 6 months? Really, there's a point to every project where after spending a certain amount of time on it you really can't do much to improve it any further, never mind the unrealistic time frame that the LT takes just to get it out the door.

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Sorry, but that statement was pretty dumb. When monks go /e for energy management, they don't have to put any attribute points into it. When they go /me, they do. I think it's pretty obvious that a 3 attribute line monk is going to choose /e rather than /me.

Exactly. This goes back to my original point about their inferior, third rate e-management. Even as a primary mesmer, why wouldn't you go for GoLE instead of the weak and underpowered inspiration line?

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If ANet is buffing underpowered professions/attribute lines in PvE, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the live team is going to address mesmers in the near future.

I once heard from a wise and benevolent man that a good management of priorities leads to successful projects, satisfied customers, and good relations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Mesmers arnt crap. They can still steamroll through PvE w/out using one of those stupid AP/norn builds. Sure they arnt as fast in PvE as the other professions but they arnt crap either.

And how is that a mesmer build? How does that allow the mesmer to do what it was designed to do, and also making a significant contribution to their team? If you want an AP caller, a necro can do better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Uh, yes, that's what pretty much everyone has been asking for: to turn blood into a support-based attribute and remove the majority of the vampiric-style damage since it's so bad as pure damage, and so unnecessary as healing.

I'll assume you're right about the demand for blood changes, but I'm pretty sure that those who demand said changes are vastly outnumbered by those who demand mesmer changes, given the amount of topics about the mesmer vs. blood magic (or necros in general).

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AP is a whole 'nother ball game. No profession has energy management capable of keeping up with that, let alone the skill recharging.

And yet that is the only "super build" that a mesmer has left, and it can be easily outdone by a necro.

Anonymous IXl · Feb 23, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Finally sf is nerfed! Boooyaa!!!

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 23, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Change it to "no-one plays mesmer in pve" and it's not far from the truth.

side note: my friend got indominable survivor on her mesmer the oldskool way.

i think many people forget how easy guildwars became when EoTN was introduced. It, in itself, pretty much broke PVE. Full Ursan groups thumping DoA in under an hour, UW speed runs. etc.etc.

there were 3 things that fully allowed the speed clear builds that are available today. Consumables, broken PVE skills, and Glyph of Swiftness. Before this, the only way you could perma Obsidian Flesh was E/R using serpents quickness which actually took a lot of skill. There were very few farms that took great advantage of this skill and being an ele with no perma SF it was also a skill running to the farm location (ie. Icy Dragon Sword farming). Nowadays, Glyph of Swiftness (GoS) enables every man and his dog to perma shadow, perma OF without having to manage energy and timing regarding all the skills you need to actually tank successfully. Oh, i guess there was also Mantra of Earth... but keeping Obsidian flesh up 100% could only be done using Serpents Quickness and a 20% enchant.

put up your hands here anyone who is QQing about the upcoming SF, OF and 600/Smite nerfs who actually finished Prophecies with Prophecies only skills and no heros? who here remembers perma-form A/Me sins in AB and HA?

and what is this whole side conversation on buffing dervs, paras, mesmers, etc etc. i guess no one really cares about the actual proposed changes apart from a few people who are actually contributing to what problems the new updates might cause. the rest of what everyone else is saying is just rubbish and trolling that is just making it harder for ANet and the Test Krewe to sort through all the genuine contributions.

I wish people would get off their self-interest-profession-based high horses for long enough and actually discuss the "actual" changes being made instead of QQ cry more QQ my profession X gets nothing QQ cry more QQ.

Side matter; I play monk (pvp + Pve), Ele (Pve), Sin(Pvp) and recently Warrior (Pvp) and Mesmer (pvp).

I can see the new tactics buffs will put better stances back onto monks bars again. I wouldn;t mind if these were definitely PVP based. But would make monks all that more tougher to kill considering the extra armour from shields and disciples insignias when combined with a tactics shield. i am particularly interested in Deflect Arrows considering the amount of Ranger hate that monks receive in PvP. Combine this with Bonnettis and you have some pretty good defence... it will bring back wild blow and other such things.

Another interesting skill would be "Retreat". It would remove the need for x/P in HA and would allow warriors to use this in HA. Perhaps it could open up some extra meta for GvG runners or could even be used on monks as a protective buff for the team as well as blocking protection for the monk.

However, i am unsure if this will be applied to PvP or will be split into PvE. It will make things even more complicated considering the already growing number of split skills. I thought ANet were trying to remove passive blocking from the game considering what they did to Aegis and Ward Against Melee. Perhaps they are trying to bring back some form of protection for the backline...

...i can only think of IWAY and Paraway.... say .... hello

i am wondering if Shove will still disable non-attack skills? Hmmm... Shove Sins or even a nice spike since ending stances which would be a nice counter against all the extra stances. I am looking foward to seeing how the meta will develop which should allow some new OP builds and remove some old OP builds from the meta.

I am sure people will come up with some interesting new builds.

maxxfury · Feb 23, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Y
And how is that a mesmer build? How does that allow the mesmer to do what it was designed to do, and also making a significant contribution to their team? If you want an AP caller, a necro can do better.

Its obviously very far from what we see as been a true "mes bar" and it is kinda generic.

Have to say tho that echo sin spamming with ap on mes is very much up there for output and is much more lenient on play than a Necro mop nuker and doesnt need to be synergised so heavily with physicals ^
Arcane echo is the kicker here! and only a me/a or a/me can get it.

Still a sad state of affairs that the best a mes can do(well that of FD) is so generic...

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 23, 2010, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

Side matter; I play monk (pvp + Pve), Ele (Pve), Sin(Pvp) and recently Warrior (Pvp) and Mesmer (pvp).

Quoted the important part. You play 5 classes going by this. Of those, 4/5 you play in PvP. I'd say you're more PvP-oriented>and you also say you recently started war and....Da-da-da-dummmmm!!!! Mesmer. Recently.

No offence, but you haven't been especially involved in this thread, a thread about a primarily PvE update, you don't appear to be as involved in the machinations of PvE as the majority of us that have been involved from the first page, and again, you recently started playing a Mes. Recently. In PvP.

If anyone is sitting on a high horse, it's ppz like you who have what appears to be minimal interest, minimal involvement, and minimal experience/skill, when it comes to what and who you're bashing. Or appear to be.

The proposed changes are getting, and have had, just as much attention as the things that haven't been changed, where this thread is concerned, and moreover the direct and prompt manner in which people are arcing up about it is exactly the sort of feedback that this thread was created for in the first place.

IMHO.

Karate Jesus · Feb 23, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Still a sad state of affairs that the best a mes can do(well that of FD) is so generic...

FD isn't very good either (at least, not in HM). Mesmers really aren't useful in PvE outside of spamming CoP, VoR, or AP nuking. And Anet took two of those away.....so......

I still play my mesmer in PvE anyway, because I just love it. However, I'd really love to have more choices that don't suck.